Fat Tony is at it again, this time he's excited about the Cadillac ELR

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
05/06/2015 at 14:32 • Filed to: Fat Tony

Yesterday !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! very excitedly showed me !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! here in town. He thought it was a screaming bargain. “It gets like 80 mpg and it’s only $47k!”

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I tried to tamp down his enthusiasm a bit. I told him it’s a gussied up Chevy Volt and GM can’t sell them to save their lives.

Later in the day he wanted to talk about it more. He was still really excited about it. “It’s not just a Chevy Volt, it’s got a version of the powertrain from the Chevy Volt, but it’s better. ”

He told me the ELR is also great because “GM took a concept car and then sold that exact concept car to the public!” I didn’t bother to try and argue about how while it looks similar to a concept, it’s not the concept.

“They only made 1300 of them! They only built them for 2014 because it’s a limited edition .”

I told him the only reason they made that few is because nobody wanted to buy them, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ? I also told him GM !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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His response: “I thought Tesla only makes sports cars.” He didn’t know what a Model S is and had no idea that Tesla now makes full size sedans (well, hatchbacks) and has been doing so for a couple years now.

I also tried and failed to explain that the “mpg” on the GM Voltec-equipped cars is kinda weird because the gas engine isn’t connected to the wheels and only is a generator for the electric motor. ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! : because !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! which is not the same as MPG.)

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So, he still is all excited about how this $47k lightly-used ELR is such a great deal, because it gets “80 mpg” and “is a concept car.”

Keep on keepin on, Fat Tony.

DISCUSSION (36)

CalzoneGolem > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:35

I think I kinda love Fat Tony.

bob and john > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:37

if they actually do get 80 mpg, i dont think its tht bad.

but I garrentee you hed buy buy it and then almost immediatly sell it because “its too small’ and ‘its not fast enought ‘ and ‘ i dont feel safe’ and a mirad of other reasons you could probably fill in.

deekster_caddy > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:41

The ELR does have a very nice interior to justify the price bump over the Volt. Sounds like the sales guy has got his ear though “Limited Edition”? Hahahahaha.

I really like the EREV model over the full BEV because it has no restrictions on what you can do. Just go to the gas station if you are going on a long trip. I’ve got 35,000 miles on my Volt and still love it every drive. It’s really amazing.

$47K, minus another $7500 from a fed tax credit, minus some states have further rebates or tax credits available, and suddenly it’s not all that awful of a deal. Cadillac really went to town on the interior, it’s very nice.

Textured Soy Protein > deekster_caddy
05/06/2015 at 14:45

1. The ELR starts at $75k, the Volt starts at $34k. Is that very nice interior worth $41k? (Yes I know the ELR isn’t selling for anywhere close to $75k in the real world.)

2. EREV vs BEV is a valid point.

3. This ELR is used. Do you get the $7500 credit buying a used one?

m-b-w loves his SUBAROO > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:46

I’m gonna guess that ELR was traded in on a prius. Also, your coworker sounds like quite a funny guy.

Textured Soy Protein > bob and john
05/06/2015 at 14:47

It’s rated by the EPA for 82 MPGe , which is a separate measurement based on charging the batteries through a combination of running the gas motor as a generator, and plugging it in to charge.

PatBateman > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:48

Let Fat Tony love his car, you killjoy!!

BigBlock440 > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:48

1) It’s more than a gussied up Volt, it’s at least all new sheetmetal and is minus a pair of doors.

2) I think the engine does drive the wheels under certain circumstances (like highway speeds when the battery is low)

Textured Soy Protein > m-b-w loves his SUBAROO
05/06/2015 at 14:50

He’s a bit frustrating because he thinks he knows things about cars, but they’re often very wrong. I don’t want to be a dick to him and correct him all the time, because nobody likes being corrected, and in the scheme of things why upset him over him believing a bunch of nonsense that’s inconsequential to life in general? So I constantly fight the urge to correct him.

deekster_caddy > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:51

Ah - I missed the used part, read it too fast. No credits for used that I’m aware of. Compare it to other $40K cars - it’s a pretty nice car.

The Volt’s interior is over the top too. Auto climate control, auto heated seats, gadgetry all over... I’m not sure how to rate it but if you compare it to something like an Acura TLX they are on par. (For some reason they dropped power seats from the Volt... saved them for the caddy, but otherwise it’s very similar) The fit and finish is much better than the Cruze people keep wanting to compare it to.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:51

I say this as somebody who is lukewarm on hybrids and on Cadillac’s modern era styling: I would rock an ELR for long commutes.

Textured Soy Protein > PatBateman
05/06/2015 at 14:51

Believe me, I try very hard to restrain myself from correcting everything with him about cars. I know it’s not nice to correct people all the time. It’s just he’s so wrong , it’s quite the struggle sometimes. I don’t want to be that guy who rains on his parade!

Textured Soy Protein > BigBlock440
05/06/2015 at 14:55

Ok you’re right on the engine driving the wheels, I looked it up. Wikipedia says :

The Voltec, like the Prius, uses a planetary gearset to couple power from two sources to the wheels. Unlike the Prius, the Voltec only rarely drives the wheels with mechanical assist from the engine.

Unlike Fat Tony, I’m totally willing to acknowledge when someone knows something I don’t!

Rico > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 14:55

My usual response to people like him who are clueless about pretty much anything is I agree with them, humor them and usually respond with variations of “Oh word?” and “Yeah that’s true”.

“It gets like 80 mpg and it’s only $47k!” - Word, that’s cool

“It’s not just a Chevy Volt, it’s got a version of the powertrain from the Chevy Volt, but it’s better.” - Oh word?

“They only built them for 2014 because it’s a limited edition .”- Yeah that’s true.

I used to correct people but in my old age (I’m only 25) I don’t have the energy anymore. Plus google exists so fuck am I wasting my breath for lol.

Also I demand more Fat Tony stories.

Textured Soy Protein > Rico
05/06/2015 at 14:57

I hear you, I resist the urge to correct people and just let them keep believing their BS but sometimes it’s so hard to suppress the urge.

deekster_caddy > bob and john
05/06/2015 at 15:04

I “average” about 100 MPG with mine. Basically I have to fill up with gas about every 1100-1200 miles, and I charge it every night for about $25/mo on my electric bill. If you have Time of Use billing available from your utility (many people do but don’t know it), your electric bill can change and be even lower than before you started charging a car every night... When I switched from regular billing to TOU billing and told my Volt to charge at night, my electric bill went back to what it was before I started charging. The “MPG” rating is bogus though, it all depends how much you drive. I’ve got 35,000 miles on my Volt. My “100 MPG” lifetime rating dropped to “80 MPG” last summer when I went on a long road trip and put about 4,000 gas-only miles on the car.

This is the stats page for my Volt: http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/… but if you click on Home you can see the larger group average for any Volt drivers who signed up with VoltStats.

Rico > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:05

Lol I feel you, listen a dude once told me his Integra was so fast because he got bigger piston rings put in. I could’ve easily asked him what shop he had this done and really shitted on him but instead I said “damn your car must be fast as hell”.

deekster_caddy > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:06

Just to fill in some details, this is a good demo of how it works in a few scenarios.

yamahog > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:07

Yea, it’d be like telling the kids there’s no Easter Bunny.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Rico
05/06/2015 at 15:15

this is what I have to do with my boss. “my new Cooper S can beat a base 911 to 60 mph because thats what the saleman said”

me “no way really? thats cool” and in my “no way, really, no, thats bullshit”

SkyNet > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:17

Wow, Fat Tony sounds like all my co-workers in their own way. Here we go:

1) Chinese Woman Tony: Is constantly thinking about buying an SUV way out of her budget and she only has 1 kid. Refuses to consider anything but a Jeep Grand Cherokee because she “likes Jeeps.” Also, she refuses to drive on the highway, or in rain or snow but she also refuses to buy anything without 4 or all wheel drive. Went 6 months without a phone because they didn’t have a gold iPhone when her old phone broke.

2) Passive Agressive Middle-Aged Micromanager Tony: Refuses to buy anything but a Honda Accord or Pilot because he “loves Honda’s.” Doesn’t know why he loves Honda’s. Thinks everyone around him should only buy Honda’s. Gets mad/resentful towards me when I buy a Camaro SS for less than his Accord. Then gets mad and resentful towards me when I buy a Cadillac ATS for about the same as his new Accord. Thinks I am an A-hole because I own a “luxury car.” He has a country club membership. He once had an “Accord off” with a partner, only it was a “reverse Accord-off” where they compared their cars to each other to see who had the lesser car.

3) Obnoxious Has to Be Different for the Sake of Being Different Yet has very Expensive Tastes Tony: Refuses to buy a Rolex Submariner because he wants to be different. Buys a Explorer II and puts a rubber orange band on it. Gets annoyed that nobody thinks his watch is a Rolex. Won’t buy a 3-Series or A4 because “everyone has one.” Won’t buy an ATS because I have one. Won’t buy a C-class because his wife used to have one. Won’t buy an S3, CLA, or 2-Series because they are too low end.

Birddog > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:30

You will not change some people’s minds, if they think they have all the correct “facts” any info you propose will get dismissed.

Example..

A family member swears that the fastest production vehicle right now is powered by a Turbo 4 cylinder engine.

Because that’s what was in a magazine at the Barber.

Hennessey Venom? Turbo 4 banger..

Bugatti Veyron? Turbo 4 banger...

And it goes on. And on. And on..

Just smile and nod. Eventually you’ll go numb and it won’t bug you anymore.

Textured Soy Protein > SkyNet
05/06/2015 at 15:44

People be crazy, man.

SkyNet > Textured Soy Protein
05/06/2015 at 15:49

What’s really crazy is that you have inspired me to name all my crazy people “Tony.” Regardless of sex or whether their name is actually Tony.

EricR > Textured Soy Protein
05/07/2015 at 13:52

As someone that has had a Volt for 3 years and now an ELR, I can assure you it is not simply a Volt in fancier sheet metal. The cars have very different driving dynamics. The fact is, we all need to understand that when talking about EVs and EREVs, we can no longer look simply at the powertrain hardware to determine whether a car is the same or not. At the risk of somewhat oversimplifying, with an EV, you have a battery and an electric motor. Think of the battery as the gas tank, as it is simply energy storage. No one looks at a car and says because it has the same size gas tank, it is the same as another car. With respect to the electric motor (which is what actually powers the wheels), the hardware is more of a "one size fits all" part, unlike an internal combustion engine which has to be sized to the vehicle application it is being put in. That is why the Tesla Model S and the Roadster have very similar electric motors (even going back to the old GM EV1, the motors are not that different), but no one would think them the same car. With respect to EREVs like the Volt and ELR, the internal combustion engine, for the most part, is simply providing electricity to motor when the battery is depleted. A more significant factor is the software, which is unique to the ELR. The software upgrades for the 2016 ELR give it more than a 25% boost to the car's power, and shaves 1.5 seconds off the 0-60. I don't recall ever seeing such a dramatic boost in performance from one model year to the next from what is essentially a software upgrade. The suspension and tuning is also completely different for the ELR. If you were being truly honest with yourself, you would never confuse driving a Volt with driving the ELR.

Textured Soy Protein > EricR
05/07/2015 at 14:10

“Gussied-up Volt” is an oversimplification, I admit.

But, for all the stuff you say is different between the two cars, which are still based on the same platform and powertrain, with some improvements to the ELR, is that worth the $44k sticker price increase from the Volt up to the ELR?

To put it another way, the cheapest Impala trim with the 3.6 liter V6 is $31k. The XTS which shares its platform but has what I would argue is a similar amount of differentiation from the Impala as the ELR has above the Volt, starts at $44k. But that’s only a $13k jump in price, not $44k.

EricR > Textured Soy Protein
05/07/2015 at 16:06

I don't think the two cars should be compared because of the similarity in hardware. A Tesla Model S customer is not going to be looking at the Roadster because they are two completely different cars serving different market niches, even if their underlying hardware is essentially the same. The Volt is a fantastic, practical compact car but I would not call it a touring car. The ELR is a luxury touring coupe. It is designed to be a driver's car, and while it does not have Tesla level performance, it does provide a truly serene driving experience. I would compare it more with an Audi A5 or other luxury 2+2. With regard to the pricing, I absolutely agree that the original $75,000 starting price was way too high. The 2016 will start at $65,000 (not including the $7,500 tax credit) with more standard features and better performance. As you are seeing, the media is much more kindly disposed to the car now. I will add, though, that Cadillac has, from the very beginning, said that the ELR would be a low volume limited edition vehicle rather than a permanent brand offering.

deekster_caddy > SkyNet
05/07/2015 at 16:38

We have a few #2s here in our office. Now that I’ve said that, I can totally correlate their taste in vehicles with a different kind of number 2!!

Textured Soy Protein > EricR
05/07/2015 at 16:41

1. Comparing the Model S to the Roadster is not equivalent at all to comparing the Volt and ELR.

The Roadster was a limited-production car built on a Lotus platform before Tesla was mass-producing vehicles (namely the Model S). A large reason the Roadster was so expensive is because the batteries Tesla was buying in relatively small quantities to build Roadsters were very expensive, and because Tesla was buying chassis from Lotus.

The Model S is built in much larger numbers which allows Tesla to buy batteries for significantly cheaper. It was designed and built fully in-house by Tesla so they didn’t have to pay a premium to use a Lotus platform. Tesla’s costs to build the Model S are significantly lower than their costs to build the Roadster, so they charge a lot less (at least for the base model) than the they did for the Roadster.

2. Of course the ELR and Volt should be compared, because the ELR and Volt have several orders of magnitude more in common than the Roadster and Model S.

Regardless of which segment they compete in, the ELR and Volt ride on the same platform and use the same basic powertrain with different software. They’re built in the same factory on the same assembly line with the same parts at the same time. That software difference isn’t a particularly expensive change. The BMW 320i and 328i have the same basic motor with different computer programming for more turbo boost, and the 328i makes 60 hp more. It costs $5k more.

My whole point is when we’re talking about costs, if one car on built a particular platform starts at $34k and you can only really option it up to maybe $40k, how the hell does another car that uses a significant amount of the exact same parts, and is built on the same damn assembly line, cost an extra $30-40k? Sure there’s more different between the ELR and Volt than between the 320i and 328i, but that’s a huge leap in price from the Volt up to the ELR.

The economies of scale should allow GM to keep the ELR price at least in the ballpark of the Volt. Just like they do with the XLR price in relation to the Impala. A realistic price for the XLR should be $50-55k. The fact that GM’s “oh look we made it so much more affordable” price is still $10-15k higher than that shows GM is just trying to mark up the ELR as much as they can.

SkyNet > deekster_caddy
05/08/2015 at 11:51

Let’s just hope they don’t start trying to force their views on that other kind of #2 on you.

EricR > Textured Soy Protein
05/08/2015 at 13:05

Our disagreement seems to be hardware similarity vs. product category. I agree with you that the Volt and ELR share substantially similar hardware underpinnings, and it seems to be your point that because of the hardware similarity, the ELR should cost less. I don't disagree with you that I feel the ELR was priced too high initially. But to carry your point further, why should -any- luxury car be priced at a premium? You can spend upwards of $100K (or more) on a high end conventional European luxury car, but at their core, their hardware is not so much different than a Honda Civic. We do this for a variety of reasons: styling, performance characteristics, exclusivity, a bit of each, etc. It may not be particularly rational (if were, we'd all be driving the vehicle that suits our needs with the lowest cost of ownership). Premium cars are also more profitable for the manufacturer. Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc. could easily sell their cars for less, or take their underpinnings (like Mercedes is doing) and make a cheaper car. Does that mean that they should do this? I would argue that they don't have to, because consumers are willing to pay for these cars at their current prices.

With the ELR, GM leveraged their technology and created a premium product. Tesla will do this in the reverse direction. It will leverage their Model S/X technology and develop the less expensive Model III, but very likely using the same or very similar hardware. Does that mean that the Model S should be cheaper? I would say no (although I would be happy if they did). There is nothing quite like the Model S out there, and so I am not offended at the premium prices Tesla charges.

Similarly with the ELR, there is nothing quite like it on the road. While it may share hardware with the Volt, it neither looks, drives, nor feels anything like the Volt. It is not simply a Volt with two doors. Moreover, the customers who are shopping for a Volt will likely not be interested in the ELR because they serve two completely different markets. The Volt is a practical car, suitable for families as a primary car. The ELR is a personal luxury coupe, completely impractical for families (although I do use the back seats for emergency kid hauling). But for commuting, it is an absolute pleasure. If a consumer did not know about the hardware similarity, he or she would never link the two from looking at it or driving it.

My point then, is that the similarity in hardware is not that relevant when comparing EVs or EREVS. Rather, the consumer will look at the car based upon its styling, performance, function, luxury aspects, etc. when deciding what to buy.

My point in comparing the Model S and Roadster was not to talk about price, but to simply say that those looking for a 2 seater sports car are not going to want a large sedan and vice versa. They are not the same car, despite having a similar battery and motor.

EricR > BigBlock440
05/08/2015 at 13:32

BigBlock440, the engine does not drive the wheels directly. In some limited conditions, it will blend some of the mechanical energy produced by the engine with the generator-produced electric power to maximize efficiency in turning the wheels. If you ripped out the battery and generator, the car would not drive. Also, unlike a Prius/Prius Plug In or other parallel hybrid, the engine will never turn on when there is battery available no matter how fast you are going unless (1) it is really cold outside, and the engine will cycle a bit to warm things up or (2) the driver toggles on "hold" mode to preserve battery.

BigBlock440 > EricR
05/08/2015 at 13:48

http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/mot…

And of course it wouldn’t move if you ripped out the battery and generator. The motors would have no power to run off, and you just removed the gas engine, so it wouldn’t be able to move it either.

Textured Soy Protein > EricR
05/08/2015 at 15:06

Let me break down what I’m saying:

1. The cost to produce any product is a combination of the costs to buy the parts and pay the workers to assemble the product.

2. If two products are built with a significant amount of the same parts, by the same workers earning the same wages, those two products will cost similar amounts to produce.

3. Because the ELR and Volt are built with a significant number of the same parts, on the same assembly line with the same labor costs, the ELR and Volt cost a similar amount to produce.

4. If two products cost roughly the same amount to produce, in order to justify charging more for Product B than Product A, there has to be something else more appealing about Product B to justify its higher purchase price.

5. In my opinion , the ELR does not have enough “something else more appealing” to justify its increased purchase price over the Volt.

As for your examples like Tesla Model S vs. Roadster, or $100k+ luxo car vs. Civic, they’re not applicable to what I’m saying, because they do not have similar parts or labor costs.

My point then, is that the similarity in hardware is not that relevant when comparing EVs or EREVS.

Yes, it is. EVs and EREVs are still products with parts and labor costs. Just because these products happen to be vehicles powered by electricity does not somehow mean they are conjured into existence by wizards, for free.

Rather, the consumer will look at the car based upon its styling, performance, function, luxury aspects, etc. when deciding what to buy.

This is true of all products. Which again, is exactly what I’m saying in #5: in my opinion the ELR does not have enough “something else more appealing” to justify its increased purchase price over the Volt.

If you feel the ELR does have enough “something else more appealing” to justify its increased purchase price for the Volt, yippy skippy for you.

EricR > BigBlock440
05/11/2015 at 13:25

BigBlock440, my point was that unlike a parallel hybrid where the battery/motors assist the engine, the Volt/ELR is the opposite. The cars can run fine at all speeds without an engine until the batteries run out.

EricR > Textured Soy Protein
05/11/2015 at 13:38

My point with respect to the Civic vs. luxury cars is that while they may have different actual parts, the technology is similar enough that the actual cost to manufacture them should not be significantly different. There is no question that luxury cars have a substantially higher profit margin than economy cars. Differences in cost would be attributable to economies of scale and premium components. But ultimately, I agree with your point that worth is in the eyes of the individual consumer. And, I would agree with you further if the Volt/ELR was simply badge engineered like the Cavalier/Cimmaron where they were truly the same cars in parts and performance characteristics but with minor trim differences. However, the ELR is engineered to look and perform completely differently than the Volt notwithstanding the similarity in hardware, and so I think that the ELR is definitely worth a significant premium over the Volt. Personally, I think the new pricing is more in line with my thoughts on the amount of the premium, and I guess we will see how the market responds. I do think Fat Tony should drive the car, and if he thinks the car is worth the price from a style and performance basis, he should buy it. He shouldn't worry about whether the innards are shared with other cars.